Weiteres 125mm-Fully mit Drop Link in 2013?

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24. November 2008
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Moin, Cy hat einen email Brief an die Cotic Community geschickt. Er sammelt Feedback von den Cotic Fans um zu entscheiden, ob für 2013 ein weiteres Fully basierend auf der Droplink Technology gebaut wird. Ich stelle es mal hier ein um eine Diskussion in Deutsch zu starten, "Krautsourcing" sozusagen:D

Das schreibt er:
What I'm hoping for with this letter is some help and some insight. I'm going to let you in on a couple of frames we're working on to expand the droplink suspension platform and I'd like some feedback from you on what you'd prefer - if anything- out of the options we're looking at, and if we're not going the way you're interestedin, what would you like?
The Rocket has been going brilliantly for us and it's been great to successfully get into a part of the market that Cotic hasn't traditionally found itself in.
However, this new area of the market is part of the issue I'd like some help with.
Whilst the Rocket is absolutely the bike I wanted for blasting around my home trails of the Peak District, a lot of people we've spoken to seem to think it will be "too much bike" for them. This surprised me a little bit, as I've quite happily put some zippy tyres on mine and shot about on singletrack trails without wishing I was on something else. People really seem to be interested in the idea of the Rocket, with
it's steel construction and clean lines, but some feel it's more than they want/need.
Realistically our usual customers (your good self) are hardtail fans, and there is definitely a body of opinion out there that people would rather be ragging a shorter travel bike towards it's limits than going off in search of the lofty limits of a 150mm bike. This being the case, we have had a couple of options on test for a couple of months now and both are getting to the point of being sorted. However, I can't see us doing both of them - not initially anyway - so I'd like some feedback
from you. Here are our current development bikes, both 26" wheel before you ask!
1) 125mm travel, 120-140mm forks, very much related to the Rocket with a steel front end and Rocket swingarm with the X-12 axle. 67.5/73 angles with 140 forks, 68.5/74 with 120's. Frame weight in the high 6lbs range. With 120mm forks it's proper nippy at trail centres, with 140mm forks it'll handle the Peak in very much mini Rocket style. Obviously carries the steel front end and aesthetic of the Rocket into something shorter and a little less intimidating.
2) 100mm travel, 100-120mm forks, aluminium throughout, basically Soul geometry. For those with a long memory for Cotic facts, the geometry on this frame is based on the KP24 prototype we did a few years back for Kate Potter to race one. Frame weight is around 6lbs depending on size. 100mm FS frames these days all seem to be either crazy light carbon or jumpy slopestyle. Nobody really makesa 100mm travel trail FS frame. That could be either an opportunity to fill a niche
or a sales disaster waiting to happen!!
Personally, I prefer the 125mm bike. It's something very much like the Rocket experience in a lighter and nippier package, and particularly at trail centres and the like you do feel much less 'overbiked' than riding the Rocket. On the 100mm frame, for me I'd rather ride my Solaris 29er hardtail as I think it does mostly the same things but lighter. On the flipside, Paul (who's 5ft 8in and doesn't really get on with 29ers) thinks it's basically a faster version of his Soul, which therefore makes it brilliant. It's clearly a good bike though, and despite my feelings towards it, I know plenty of people who don't want to go 29".
 
Ich plädiere für 125mm, Alu komplett und eine eher racige Geometrie mit 74er Sitzwinkel, 69° Lenkwinkel bei 100mm Gabel (d.h. 68° bei 120mm und 67° bei 140mm), dazu ein eher langes Oberrohr, dass man einen 70mm Vorbau fahren kann und 420mm Ketttenstreben.
 
Gute Idee, vielleichte so eine Art Trail Bike, mit 125-130 mm hinten und bis 140-150 mm vorne. so ähnlich wie das Transition Bandit, dann kann man damit auch gut lange Touren bzw. einen Alpencross fahren. Ansonsten eher verspielt, aber trotzdem gut zum hochfahren...
Ich kenn mich da aber nicht so richtig aus, war nur so eine Idee :confused: ;)
 
ich versteh eigentlich nicht so ganz, was man am rocket besser machen könnte ;)

wenn schon ein bike mit weniger federweg, dann schon auch signifikant leichter, sonst macht das in meinen augen gar keinen sinn.
in der 100mm race-fully klasse gibt's imho eine erschlagende anzahl von guten bikes anderer hersteller, die leichter sind. könnte schwierig werden, sich da noch zu platzieren.
eine 125mm trailbike-variante, wie von frankensteinmtb angesprochen mit 140-150mm gabel aufbaubar fände vielleicht eher schon eine nicht ganz so ausgelutschte "niesche". wobei ja eigentlich das 150mm rocket schon progressiv genug ist, dass man sich nicht von zu viel federweg eingeschränkt fühlen müsste... . aber wenn's der markt so will, warum nicht? wie gesagt, wenn es so sein soll, dann aber richtig viel leichter, sonst grenzt es sich ja zum rocket gar nicht ab. ein bomb-proof hauptrahmen aus stahl ist da meiner meinung zuviel des guten. da wäre ich dann für 125mm + komplett alu, und min ein kg leichter als das rocket. das fände ich dann schon wieder interessant. sitzwinkel ein bisschen steiler, lenkwinkel mit 150mm gabel so lassen wie am rocket (damit's mit den eher spiddeligen 32mm gabeln trotzdem noch gut überall drüber läuft), kettenstrebenlänge auch wie am rocket, oberrohr ein wenig länger, und wenn's ein alurahmen wird beim steuerrohr vielleicht auf den 49mm standard gehen wegen angleset (zero stack). zugführung könnte man in dem zusammenhang gleich auch noch überarbeiten ;)
 
Das Rocket läuft auf jeden Fall weiter. Es geht darum evtl. noch ein Schwestermodell zu bauen.

Ein leichteres Trailbike mit 125mm hinten würde schon Sinn machen.

Ich denke ein 110mm Fully braucht kein Mensch mehr, der Bereich wird fast schon durch das Solaris abgedeckt.

Was haltet ihr von einem 140mm 29"er Fully?
 
Naja, 29er hat Cy für dieses aktuelle Modell ja eigentlich ausgeschlossen zu haben. Sie sind in der Entwicklung und hoffen es dieses Jahr vorstellen zu können.
Ansonsten scheinen die meisten das 125mm Bike zu bevorzugen, Alu als alternativmaterial scheint noch nicht zur Disposition zu stehen. Ich werde Cy nachher mal mailen.

Lest doch selber:p

Cy schrieb:
Me again.

After an overwhelming response to yesterdays' email, I wanted to drop you a line to say thanks and to let you know the result, and answer some questions.

Firstly, the vast majority of people who responded are saying that our Option1 frame, the mid-travel steel front end frame for 120-140mm forks, is the one they want. It seems our suspicions were correct and plenty of our love the look and idea of the Rocket, but want something a little shorter travel, lighter and nippier. So, your wish is our command and we'll be focusing on developing the mid-travel 'mini' Rocket into production. There's still a bit of work to do, so expect something in production probably next summer.

A few points I picked up are worth drawing out and explaining though.

Firstly weight. Quite few mentioned about the frame weight on the mid-travel frame would be good down at 6lb or below. I'm sure it would, but this is moon-on-a-stick territory for a bike like this made from metal, be that steel or aluminium. The only way you're making a tough, stiff bike like this at that weight is with carbon. A good few of you sited the Blur TRc as an ace concept 'if only the frame wasn't nearly £3,000'. Well, that's where you're at building a hard riding bike at 5.3lbs frame weight.

This frame will be a good bit lighter than the Rocket, but it'll be in the 6.5lb+ weigh bracket because I won't sacrifice durability I want from any of our products or the stiffness than makes the Rocket so ace. The key thing is that the shorter travel suits a lighter build. When I went out to Portugal with AQR Holidays in March, I took my Rocket with tubeless'd Maxxis IKON tyres, swapped my Reverb for a lightweight rigid post, and popped a smaller front rotor on the bike. It was already running Fox Float 32 150's which are pretty light, and the bike was down at sub-29lbs with pedals. With a lighter frame, lighter wheels and lighter 120mm forks, you're looking at knocking another pound or so off this, and my bike has full XT and Magura brakes and nothing fancy in terms of finishing kit. The mid-travel bike will easily build into a good weight build which will suit it.

Secondly, we got a few votes for a 100mm travel frame but with slack-as-you-dare angles on a 120mm fork. The reason this isn't on the table is because I have some experience with this kind of set up, and although it seems attractive the reality is less rosey. When I was developing the geometry for the new bikes I had some K9 anglesets for the Hemlock. With the -2deg cups in from the Rocket geometry development, I then set about trying to get something short/mid-travel that I liked. I tried out a really radical option for a while, the Hemlock with 120mm rear travel, 120mm forks at 67.5deg head angle, REALLY low BB. It completely ripped on smoother trails with flowing corners, but I found it hard to climb on compared to the Rocket geometry because of the low BB and the slack angles just didn't seem to suit the shorter travel. However, the key thing that pushed me away from this option is that 120mm forks aren't stiff enough for the situations the geometry gets you into. You're on this stable, confidence inspiring little firecracker of a thing, blasting down some rocks and you get to a very obvious point in the speed where the forks suddenly aren't stiff enough to deal with the speed you've got up, and everything gets very scarey in a the-bike-is-trying-to-kill-me kind of way. These were QR15 Fox forks, not QR. I also wrecked a mid-weight rear rim, again because of the speed the geometry insighted. So, basically you'd need a stiffer longer travel fork reduced in travel to sort the front end, and stronger heavier wheels to take the beating. At which point everything weighs as much as the longer travel bike, but this one is limited in the rocks by it's reduced travel. Fail.

The best option I ended up with was something slightly steeper (the mid-travel development bike is similar shape to the crazy slack Hemlock test bike, except for a 68.5 deg head angle on 120mm forks). With the sharper handling and shorter wheelbase it's nippier in tight singletrack and whips around berms at trail centres, yet is kind of naturally self limiting on rockier terrain without being too scary. The 140mm option on the mid-travel bike takes the head angle back to 67.5deg again, but the longer travel and stiffer platform of the bigger fork can cash the cheques the geometry is writing which makes it a lot of fun on rockier sections. 67.5 is still around 0.5deg steeper than the Rocket with 140mm forks, so the bike is still a little shorter and steeper overall, a little less 'gravity'.

Third point - we got a few people asking about 100mm rear, 140mm front. We always get a bit of this, and whilst it's not currently in the plan, the bolted and bonded construction method we use on the shock mounting means it is possible to do a small run of the steel frame with a different shock mount to suit a shorter shock. Something for once we're in production, and it would definitely be hefty deposits only. Can't see a huge market, but if enough people put their money where their mouth is we can make it happen.

Finally, a lot of people mentioning bigger wheels. I specifically didn't throw that into the mix here because the shorter 26" platform is the one we were specifically concerned about. I am working on a 29" version of the droplink platform which I will hopefully be able to show you prototypes of in the new year. We've not looked at all at 650b, and I'm surprised quite so many people mentioned it. It seems the marketing is working ;-) I will look at it at some point, but having measured up some wheels it's so close to 26" that it's not high on my list of priorities right now.



Thanks again for being involved. It's been really useful, and I really appreciate your time and thoughts.

Cheers,

Cy
 
Ich kann mir nicht recht vorstellen, dass es für diesen Mid-Range Bereich einen ausreichenden Markt gibt.

ALLE wirklich großen Hersteller tummeln sich mit super spitz kalkulierten Bikes in dieser Kategorie. Das ist sozusagen die Golf-Klasse des Mountain Bikes. Da haben sich (zumindest in der Autobranche) schon viele beim Versuch, sich was vom Kuchen abzuzwacken, die Zähne ausgebissen.

Mir persönlich (aber da sind die Geschmäcker verschieden) wär das auch zu sehr "do-it-all-bike". Das ist was für Leute, die nicht wissen was sie wollen ;)
 
Mid-range kann auch gut für Leute sein, die wissen was sie nicht wollen, denen das Rocket "zu viel Bike ist". Ich persönlich würde mich dazu zählen. Mir hat das Rocket echt Spaß gemacht, aber 120/140 reicht für mich auch.
 
Nach meinen Erfahrungen mit dem Rocket ist das schon ein ideales Trailbike.
Weniger Bike mit weniger Federweg würde dann in den Bereich Marathon/Race gehen und da würde für mich vor allem weniger Gewicht zählen. Das geht nur mit Alu oder Carbon (ich musste schon ganz gut in die Tasten hauen, um unter 14 zu kommen) und das ist Cotic nicht. Also sein lassen. Wenn wenig Federweg und Stahl, dann eine Art Slopestyler mit radikal flachem Lenkwinkel und niedrigem Tretlager. Das würde dann wieder passen.
Cy sollte aber eher Energie darauf verwenden zu prüfen, ob Drop Link auch für 29er taugt. Dann würde ein Bike für die großen Jungs mit 130/140mm Federweg Sinn machen, so in der Art des Tallboy.
 
Ich glaube es wird ein mid-travel 26" dabei rauskommen und ein 29" fully mit 140mm Federweg, beide aus Stahl. Tippe auf Lieferung im Sommer 2013, zuerst das 26" dann später das 29". Schauen wir mal.
 
Ich glaube es wird ein mid-travel 26" dabei rauskommen und ein 29" fully mit 140mm Federweg, beide aus Stahl. Tippe auf Lieferung im Sommer 2013, zuerst das 26" dann später das 29". Schauen wir mal.

Nennt mich Marjorie, die Allwissende Müllhalde.
biggrin.gif
(Oh je, damit werden die Sub40er jetzt nix anzufangen wissen ;))
 
Leute, hebt schön euer Weihnachtsgeld auf!

Das Rocket bekommt wahrscheinlich bereits im Frühsommer Droplink-Geschwister. In seiner Mail (siehe post 6) hatte Cy ja schon indirekt ein mid-travel-bike angekündigt, etwas leichter als das Rocket.

Auch in Sachen hardcore-29er-fully scheint Cy schneller voran zu kommen als geplant.

Mehr dazu berichte ich Anfang April, dann kann/darf ich noch einen echten Knaller zu dem Thema aus dem Sack lassen. Stay tuned

:love:
 
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